This is a continuation of a discussion with a reader named Natalie. The discussion began with a comment on my post, Is It Ok To Soften The Knee To Get Greater Turn-Out?, which lead to another comment, which lead to another comment, which lead to ANOTHER comment……. You get the picture. (Click the link above and scroll down to comments to read the first part of our discussion.)
We are talking about two different schools of thought regarding holding turn-out in a standing position: Should one primarily use the glutes, or the deep 6 external rotator muscles?
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 Deep Hip Rotators |
Natalie says:
“The more you do bigger gestures the more you need to incorporate the big muscles [e.g. glutes]. However if you are not lifting the legs and simply doing plies or port de bras … just standing still moving the arms around … you do not need to have your glutes engaged to maximum.” It is more efficient, she says, to use the deep rotator muscles while standing because they are closer to the bones.
Natalie is not the only one who has received this information from teachers and ballet physiologists. Gretchen Ward Warren says something similar in her book, Classical Ballet Technique: “It is often incorrectly assumed that turn-out is maintained by contracting the buttocks muscles. The hip rotator muscles–not the gluteus muscles–rotate the legs outward. However, the buttocks muscles are often used to stabilize the body in the turned-out position and can help the dancer to feel and control turn-out. These muscles should not be overused. The sensation of tightening should be felt at the top of the back of the legs–more underneath the buttocks than on top of them. Never pinch the buttocks together so that the pelvis is thrust forward (i.e. tucked under).” (Emphasis is her own.)
I respond:
“The glutes are bigger muscles than the tiny deep muscles and therefore they are more suitable for taking on the ‘heavy lifting’ … If you are not allowed to make the glutes work (hard!) in a standing position, then how are they going to be strong enough to hold the leg in developpe?”
I was taught to squeeze the glutes tightly by my ballet teachers, and I am also getting this information from pedagogical degree holder from the Vaganova Academy, Eric Conrad (see his two-part video blog below).
In response to what Warren wrote in her book, I would say that from a purely physiological standpoint, it is BOTH the hip rotator muscles AND the gluteus muscles which hold turn-out (a.k.a. external, or lateral, rotation), not simply one or the other. (For a list of which muscles are used to turn-out, go to this website and scroll down to the bottom where it says, “Lateral Rotation (External Rotation)”.) She also doesn’t explain why you need to be careful not to “overuse” the glutes, so I feel a bit lacking for explanation.
Update!
Eric Conrad joins in the discussion by talking about conservation of energy…
Conrad Says You Can’t Trust Everything You Read
Eric Conrad also touches on this topic in his two-part blog entitled, “Shocking Misinformation.” In fact, a lot of what I am saying is just paraphrasing what he says below…
…and Part 2…
What do YOU think? Comment below!
Hi Mary, I’m coming a bit late to this discussion, but just thought i’d respond to the question of ‘overusing the glutes’. Although i no longer do, i danced to professional level (20 plus years ago), and struggled throughout my training to find what my teachers back then called my ‘seat muscles’. I can truly say i used to depend too much on my glutes as unless i was standing still and really concentrating, i didn’t seem able to summon the deep six. The effect for me was a bunching of the buttock muscles and the tendency for them to kick in all the time even when i didn’t want them, and it really hampered me, eg in arabesque. Long after i stopped dancing i did pilates and finally found the deep six by using the rotator disc. What a revelation! I’d say to students now, get into the pilates studio and do the same -- a world of difference is waiting.
Hi Tracey,
That is interesting. Were you using 180 degree turn-out in your ballet lessons? Once I started turning out all the way, I realized that it wasn’t possible to fully engage the muscles in a less turned-out position, and that turning-out forced me to use those muscles because otherwise I would fall down.
I am also realizing, after having some time away from this whole debate, that this is kind of a silly question in a way. I mean, you can’t really have a conversation with your body while you are dancing and tell it, “Now don’t use THIS muscle, use THAT one.” That would be kind of like a bird trying to use his feet instead of his wings to fly. It’s physically impossible. That is: if you are in the correct placement, there is really only one way that the body can mechanically perform each exercise. Such as lifting the leg to the front, for example: a kinesiologist would say that there are certain muscles which elevate the leg to the front. Different muscles elevate the leg to the back. That’s just the way the musculoskeletal system works; you can’t really control which muscles to turn on and which muscles to turn off. It is good to analyze things in order to understand the correct way, but maybe it is possible to overanalyze too.
As far as overusing the glutes and getting bulky, I think that was probably not your fault at all. The reason muscles get bulky is when we do too many repetitions of a particular exercise. My theory is your teacher(s) had you doing too many exercises which built up the glutes. Did you also have a problem with your thighs getting bulky, or was it only around your butt area?
Thanks for the comment!
Mary
I have the same problem! Short muselcs.I would recommend having a friend help you stretch. One thing I do is lie on my back and extend one leg straight up. Then I have a friend push against my leg while I push against her. This causes resistance. I push really hard for a few seconds, then relax, and my friend can push my leg further. Continue this process and it will help lengthen your muselcs.PLEASE, be very careful when doing this so you do not over stretch yourself!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!You can also stretch by yourself. Here is a website that explains stretching in detail. Hope this helps! : )i dance 2
Beware of paralysis through analysis.
The human body and the motor function part of our brain is a lot smarter than we are and it runs subconsciously. It knows how to achieve the desired motion and position using the minimum energy required and it knows how to maximize output for large jumps or difficult positions.
Ballet and dance in general is way too difficult to micromanage which muscle should be firing, what timing, and what percentage utilization. Even thinking about specific steps like “open legs close legs” for a beat is way too complex to handle in real-time and the dancer will end up looking mechanical and unnatural at best.
If you simply tell your body to achieve a certain look or action, it will do it without you instructing each specific muscle. You can tell it things like “get higher up on releve and have ankle fully stretched” or “square off the back more” and it will respond naturally.
The best strategy in my experience is to try to achieve the most beautiful line or movement possible using the least amount of energy. That allows the dancer to be less tense so they can move freely and be more graceful. The same philosophy extends to sports. Even Olympic sprinters are trained to run loosely and I recall someone talking about the sprinter’s face and that the most powerful and efficient technique is to have the skin on the face flutter in the wind rather than have it stiff.
Natalie,
Awesome! Thank you for a really fun and interesting discussion.
Mary
Natalie,
Thank you!! That was a very helpful explanation of your training, UK practices, etc. I think now I understand: it seems that the Vaganova method of PLACEMENT is only preserved by Russians in Russia because those students at the Vaganova and Bolshoi academies are perfectly suited to turn-out (due to the rigorous selection process). When you take that method into another country, like you say, the method changes because of different circumstances.
From what Eric Conrad says, however, his method can take an average student and incrementally increase that student’s turn-out so that it IS flat, 180 degrees (there is a very specific way to do this so that injuries do not occur, so obviously only someone trained in the Conrad method can do this). Although there are a few students who will be limited by the bone structure of their hips, Eric’s experience tells him that 9 out of 10 actually do have the FACILITY for turn-out, although their hips do not naturally fall open to that degree and they are often unable to MAINTAIN turn-out because their muscles have not been developed in the correct way (a result of incorrect placement). He also believes that this is the case for 99% of students; meaning, only about 1% of students have the natural turn-out that Vaganova or Bolshoi students have.
If he is right about that, which my experience tells me he probably is, that is the VAST majority of students!
And if the Conrad method does in fact work (which I will soon find out for myself), then we are telling the vast majority of students not to use 180 degree turn-out unnecessarily, resulting in a complete difference in muscle development and inevitably leading to injuries. So in my opinion, playing it “safe” does not only NOT prevent injuries but actually CAUSES them, even though that is the exact opposite of the intention.
Sorry to keep asking questions, but another thing I’m curious about: Were the teachers who certified you holders of the Russian pedagogical degree? I’m just wondering because, although many ex-dancers do go on to study teaching as you say, I do know there are a lot of teachers out there who studied at the Vaganova school as a dancer but did not actually study pedagogy. It just seems to me, the more I learn about the Vaganova method, the more I realize that placement is a much more complicated subject to teach than I initially believed. One would easily assume that being an advanced dancer would be enough to understand how to teach correct placement, but now I believe that teaching is an entirely different matter than dancing.
Thanks so much for continuing this discussion. It is so nice to have someone to talk about these things with!
Mary
Hi Mary.
That is very interesting to hear. Thank you for explaining Eric’s views on turnout. It helps to understand where he is coming from. I am so looking forward to learning more from Eric.
I am not sure if the person who ran the teacher’s course here had their pedagogical degree. They do have teachers who are ex-dancers with the Bolshoi, but like you said that does not necessarily mean they have their pedagogical degree.
Have you had your first lesson with Eric yet?
Nope, haven’t had my first lesson yet since Eric is still getting settled after moving from Russia to LA. Did you see his latest youtube video, though? It’s a master class he did with a new studio in the LA area directed by two Russians who asked Eric to come in as a pedagogical consultant:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3pA7v9eY0E&feature=feedf
Thanks Mary. That was a verr interesting video. Thank you for sharing it!
I have e-mailed Eric my questions!
Natalie
Recently I posted a blog on the musculature of the hips and buttocks and the function from a purely Medical perspective of what the muscles are and what they are designed to do… i also go into the idea of gripping versus using the strenghth and that at first of course when they are weak you have to grip them in order to properly activate them… all of my own research on the science behind the muscluature and their ennervation and their function has been right in line with Eric’s / Russia’s pedagogical ideas on the glutes … all informaiton is available online about everything.. you can nearly get an MD on line nowadays so its really helpful to research this way. The Soviets — in all areas of sport and atheletics are superior simply bc they fund so much research behind their training — much as our Olympic Training Centers do… they use research to develop the athletes… not just notions…. unfortunately Ballet has been left out of the Olympic Training System / Government Funding here (if it were in teh Olympics there would be a lot of funding for the imporvemnet of it) — but in Russia Ballet was as funded as any sport and there is so much research as to the methods! I find it very exciting to learn — and well after “trying other methods” and being a little unimpressed with my own results even as I have a gret body for ballet, I feel giving Eric’s a real chance certainly cant hurt anyworse than not progressing at all.
Hi.
The organisation I did my Vaganova teacher training was taught by people who trained in Russia but then brought the method over to the UK. So it is understandable that some things change when they are brought from one place to the other. The UK dance community is very concerned about safe practise. For example things like forcing a 5th position is frowned upon because of the detriment it can have on the knees and ankles. Dance teaching is much more strictly controlled over here. In the US anyone can teach ballet. Although technically the same is true here, there are about 6 main ballet societies that train and certify ballet teachers. Most parents look for these qualifications when looking for a place to send their children to dance. These societies have to train safe practise if they are to get government funding or become accredited by exam boards or universities.
Even ex-professional dancers tend to get these teaching qualifications after finishing their career and transitioning to be a teacher. A lot of teachers have qualifications in more than one method because you can only enter students in for examinations if you have a qualification in that method (the UK is all about ballet exams!). Each job wants you to be able to enter students for their method exams so for a teacher to be successful in such a varied marketplace, she/he has to have multiple qualifications. Usually however most people choose a method and try to stick to it. I hope get back to only teaching Vaganova when I start my own school.
Regarding the placement, Eric’s method is not that different from my Vaganova training. It is more an issue of what is considered safe practise in Russia and what is considered safe practise in the UK. I was taught the syllabus and style of the Vaganova method, how to do the steps in the Russian way, use the epaulement, how to teach the steps, and plan a class. To get onto the course you already had to dance at a high level and have passed your advanced ballet exams. If you didn’t know how to hold your turnout or lift your legs then you wouldn’t have been able to get on the course. So the course focused more on the syllabus and style. With regards particularly to holding the turnout we were just told to ensure that the children we teach understand that turnout comes from the hips and not the feet and were given exercises to help them to understand this (like sitting on the floor turning in and out the legs etc). We were also told that our students should not force their fifth or get the leg all the way to the side if it distorted their placement. Again it was focused on correct placement and posture that is in keeping with what is accepted as safe practise in the UK. We work our students had to improve their turnout but it is understood that not everyone will be able to achieve a flat turnout safely. If you are training pre-professional dancers of course they have to get that flat 5th and leg flat to second, but then you only put children in pre-professional training if they have the natural facility to turn out.
When I did more in-depth teaching qualifications outside of the Vaganova, that is where I did the anatomy for ballet. In the anatomy for ballet is where we were taught what exact muscles to use to turn out.
And regarding the Italian style, like I said it was just my particular teacher at that time. I have a bottom that sticks out even when my pelvis is in neutral so many teachers want me to tuck to make my bottom look more flat. A lot of teachers teach this way and unfortunately don’t realise that people have differences in the angles of the spine and pelvis.
Does that all make more sense?
Natalie
Thanks Mary. I look forward to it!
Not to worry, I understand that the ‘squeeze your bottom’ method has been around for years. I was trying to avoid calling it the ‘old-fashioned method’!
In my Vaganova training we didn’t talk about the bottom at all that I can remember. It was mostly about placement and style (this was many years ago). I wasn’t told to squeeze my bottom until I did the Italian style but unfortunately they also wanted me to tuck my bottom which caused a myriad of problems for me. Which is another reason why I went to the non-grip method. It suits my body more and means I can dance more freely and without the pain I experienced with the gripping and tucking method. Again slightly different from Eric’s method as he obviously does not have his dancers tuck).
Regarding the medical professionals, the ones I follow and trained under are experts in the field of ballet and many of them are ex-professional dancers. They understand the ins and outs of ballet technique. Their main focus is on finding ways for dancers to dance safer and longer as dance careers now last much longer than they use to and the demands put on ballet dancer’s body are much greater than 70 years ago. If ever any of my dancers have an issue I always tell them to go to a professional ballet physio and not a doctor or plain-old physio. The average medical professional will most often tell people that ballet is bad for them. I get rather annoyed with medical professionals giving advice about something they have no experience or knowledge of. They really have no understanding of what a ballet body is required to do and therefore can not give sound advice.
Hey Natalie,
Too bad somebody told you to tuck your bottom… that sounds weird to me. I also studied under the Cecchetti method (when I was very young) but I was never told to tuck my pelvis or anything like that. Hmm. Maybe it was your particular teacher?
Just curious, but what did they teach you about placement in your Vaganova training? I just find it a bit odd that they didn’t talk about the bottom muscles at all. Did they show you an alternative way to hold your turn-out then? I’m just trying to understand what they are teaching in these certification programs because there seems to be a real huge discrepancy between that and the degree program… So I’m wondering did they teach you placement at all, or did they actually teach you a different method of placement?
It’s just a bit disconcerting to me that two people (you and Eric Conrad), both with some sort of Vaganova training, are teaching two entirely different methods. I mean, the technique one uses to hold turn-out is probably the most fundamental, important technique that a dancer will ever learn. It kind of boggles my mind… :-/
Mary
Hi Natalie,
Thank you for the thoughtful comment! You do not come across negatively at all, btw.
I totally understand and agree with you: it is important above all to understand something yourself before using it yourself, whether that is a teaching method or a particular technique or anything else for that matter.
When it comes to the glutes question, let me just point out that the “squeeze method” is not Eric Conrad’s invention but has been around for hundreds of years. The Vaganova method has been around for almost 100 years. So nothing that Eric teaches is new at all, except what makes his method unique, which is the way to go about teaching non-Russian students.
Although I think physiotherapists like Lisa Howell have very interesting information when it comes to stretching or injury rehabilitation, I’m a bit wary when it comes to matters of teaching technique just because teaching is not their area of study. The same applies to medical organizations giving teaching advice… it’s easy to trust that doctors know everything about the human body and how it should move, but ballet is a very unnatural way of moving and I would rather get advice from someone experienced in the field.
Back to your own teaching, I think you are right to continue teaching the way you have been until you learn more about the Conrad method. It is not a quick and easy thing to learn (even once you get the dvd, there is still a LOT to learn), and I know that I won’t be able to teach it properly for quite some time.
I will know a whole lot more once I start training with Eric and I will be sure to keep everyone posted on that!
Mary
Hi Mary. Thank you for your response. I am sorry it has taken me so long to take a look at the videos.
I can understand that the non-squeeze method can be confusing if you have been taught the other way. I was taught the squeeze method since I was young so I do understand the confusion. I have been training in the non-squeeze method for about 2 years now, so I understand the theory behind it and the anatomy of the training, how to apply it physically and the benefits, but I do still have questions about finer details which I am still learning.
There is a great deal of talk in Western Europe about dancing safely and teaching with a mind towards safe practise and student welfare, therefore many of the professional dance schools here adopt this non-squeeze method. According to Dance Medicine Research (which Eric has referenced) the non-squeeze is advocated for injury prevention and safe practise. This is why I have trained in it and adopted it for my teaching practise. I am an avid follower of people like Lisa Howell for her practical, in-depth knowledge. She too advocates the use of the deep-six as the main rotators of the legs. She is probably the better person to explain it as she has a more in-depth knowledge and experience than I do. She can answer your queries about finer details which I am still learning.
I hope I am not coming across in a negative, know-it-all way, I am just trying to explain what I have been taught so that you or Eric can better explain your method to me. I am not saying Eric is wrong, I just want to try and understand so that I can be sure to teach my own students the best, most effective, healthy way of dancing. If that is Eric’s method then that is great! I just want to be sure before I start teaching something completely different. I think it is important to research the many methods out there so that as a teacher I can choose which is the best for my students.
I appreciate you and Eric taking the time to explain things. I understand more now about what Eric is saying and I look forward to reading your blog’s about your upcoming lessons with him. You are both so patient with my many queries.
Natalie