Turn-Out in 5th Position: Is it OK to “Give” at the Knee? (UPDATED ANSWER)
A recent comment reminded me of an important question I asked a while back, which I recently learned the correct answer to (from taking the teacher’s course this January). The question was, “Is it OK to ‘give’ at the front knee in order to get into 180 degree turn-out when executing battement tendu from 5th position?” (See the previous post and the video question here.)
I thought I’d share that answer with you, since several of you just bought Peggy Willis-Aarnio’s “How To Teach: The First 3 Days” book, which includes an explanation of how to turn-out according to the method Vaganova founded (which occurs on the 2nd Day). I know many of you have discovered that you DO, in fact, have 180 degree turn-out that you never used before, and you are now trying to implement that turn-out into your exercises.* Since this question pertains to the second half of the battement tendu exercise (the closing part) from 5th position, I thought it would be important for you to know the right answer.
The answer I got previously was that you must have both a perfectly straight front knee AND 180 degree turn-out. However, this doesn’t quite tell the whole story. If you look very carefully at the video below of 1st Class Vaganova students, you will notice that their front knee appears to “give” (for lack of a better word) when they close 5th (fast forward to 2:42 for the battement tendu exercise).
You will notice, however, that they remain pulled-up at all times. This probably seems obvious, but it is very important to always pull up! The thing that confused me, and is why I asked this question, was that I did not know it was possible to pull-up and yet also give slightly at the knee at the same time. I thought that “pulling up” always meant that the knee was in a locked-out position. However, pulling up really means tightening the entire leg so that it is taught, and there are certain cases like this where “giving” at the knee (while it is still very tight and pulled up!) is acceptable. Watch the video above again and notice how they are pulling up while the knee appears to give.
So when is giving at the knee acceptable? In battement tendu, closing in 5th position, the front knee may “give” as needed (by the way, it is always the front knee, never the back). Of course, you must ALWAYS remain pulled up!!
There is also another instance, or another case, where the knees do not need to be “locked out,” so to speak. Can you guess what that might be?
Footnotes
*Here I should insert a disclaimer (which is also in the book): The book I mentioned above is intended to be used as a supplement to the teacher’s course, which covers all of this information in great detail, and which cannot be substituted or replaced by even the best book or DVD. While it is wonderful to know how to turn-out by reading the book, and it may be possible to implement this new information into your lessons (with help, of course), there is no substitute for a learned teacher who can give you corrections in person. Failure to understand all of the details of the method, covered by the teacher’s course, could result in injury and is not recommended. So basically, what I’m saying is: I recommend that you get the book if you are interested in getting a thorough, well-written and detailed introduction to the method. However, this is an introduction only, and the only way to actually LEARN the method (and use it properly!) is by taking the teacher’s course.
I think I see it when the front leg is the working leg. It is very subtle, though. And after the knee gives, they straighten the knee, right?
When they close to fifth position from the tendu, are they also shifting their weight so that they are balanced between two feet?
And in their pliés, such as at 2:05, do they straighten the back leg before the front leg?
Fifth position is way more complicated than it seemed when I first learned about it!
Well, the knee straightens again when the next tendu begins. So while it is in 5th, it is still making space there.
Yes, the weight shifts back to both feet as the working leg closes, and transfers back to the standing foot when the working leg opens.
I see where you think it looks like they are straightening the back leg before the front leg. Both legs are supposed to straighten at the same time, so maybe it just looks like they are straightening the back leg first because the back knee doesn’t need to give at all like the front knee does.
If the front leg is the working leg, does the knee also give? I have a hard time seeing whether that happens in that video or not. And does this continue on into later years of training? Or do they learn to not let the knee give?
Also, I noticed that in these pliés, their torso seems to be behind the line of the knees and feet. Is that correct?
Yes, the “giving” happens both when the front leg is working or supporting. So when you watch the video, notice how they close the leg in fifth front (the front knee gives), and when they close 5th back (the front knee gives). It is very subtle, but they all do it to some extent. I think it’s a little easier to see on the second girl from the front because of the camera angle. The main point is, the knee is pulling up at the same time, so it won’t be really noticeable.
When I asked Peggy Willis-Aarnio this question at the teachers course, I do believe she said that you may not have to give as much after practice. I think I remember she also said that it depends on the individual body.
You brought up a great question with the torso. Yes, it is behind the line of the knees and feet in this case; this is because of the way our bodies are structured. The main thing to remember when you are dancing is that your weight should be centered in the middle of the foot, from your heel to the 2nd toe, and the knees should bend in plie directly over the feet. (When you watch the video, notice how their knees go directly to the side, right over their feet. This is very important.)